A conversation between Jesse Herford, Juliana Muniz and Daniel Principe from Collective Shout.
Jesse: Welcome, Daniel. Could you tell us a little more about Collective Shout.
Daniel: Collective Shout is a grassroots movement against exploitation. We campaign against the objectification of women and the sexualisation of girls. I spend most of my time working in schools and communities educating people on the harms of pornography and how that’s shaping our views of men, women, sex, sexuality, violence, respect, consent and so on.
Jesse: So some light-hearted stuff.
Daniel: That’s right. Don’t invite me to polite dinner parties.
Jesse: It’s not really a small talk kind of situation. But it’s an incredibly powerful thing that you do and something we feel is important to talk about.
Daniel: This is something that affects everybody and I admire the courage of any organisation, institution or individual who says, “Hey, this is hurting people and relationships and we want to do something about it.”
Jesse: Give us a bit of a background. How is this personal for you particularly?
Daniel: I do this work in part because of my own story of being exposed to pornography at 11 years old. It shaped my ideas around a lot of significant topics because it acts as an educator. If all media influences our beliefs, then pornography does that on steroids. Porn is dehumanising. It harms men, harms women, and it isn’t leading us to have healthy, fulfilling, loving relationships or to care for one another.
Jesse: I think intuitively we accept that we live in a sex-inundated culture. It’s everywhere. What is the big-picture image you think of that we should be concerned about?
Daniel: One of my mentors and friends, Professor Robert Jensen, says, “Pornography is what the end of the world looks like.” It strips us of our humanity and the research is clear that the combination of social media and sexualised media has a very seriously negative impact on people’s capacity for empathy. If we lose empathy, what do we have? I would suggest, barbarism. The most extreme human rights violations become someone’s erotic fantasy. During the beginning of the Ukrainian war, the most trending things on porn sites were Ukrainian girls. [These are people] with dignity that we owe respect, care and love to.
More than 90 per cent of Australian men have been exposed to porn, 20 per cent consume it daily and 40-60 per cent every week. Yet, most men have never stepped back to recognise what is happening to the people on the screen and what that says about themselves.
We pride ourselves in becoming a more enlightened, progressive, equal, caring society. And yet, this content that has become more ubiquitous, has also become more extreme, racist, sexist, violent and depraved. What does that say about us?
Juliana: Is there such a thing as
ethical pornography?
Daniel: I would say no, for several reasons. What’s claimed to be ethical makes up less than one per cent of this industry. For me, it’s just such a distraction that the industry uses to not reckon with the harms being done that are demonstrated across the board.
We must look at the harms to the performers themselves. We must look at harms to the consumer, which is easily provable because government reports are clear. Can you say it’s ethical if it leads you to not being able to have a healthy relationship or sexual relationship with the person you’re committed to? What about the consequences broadly for society through the normalisation of pornography and its harms? And lastly, what about the drive for demand for things like human trafficking? Most people that enter the industry have been involved before they were 18.
If we look at all those categories, it’s hard to say that this is not doing any harm. So, the onus would be on the person making that claim to define ethical porn, prove it exists and then prove it’s not doing any harm in any one of those categories.
Jesse: Could you talk a little more about what it’s like being “in the industry”?
Daniel: For heterosexual women who’ve entered the industry, 50 per cent of them were either at or below the poverty line the year before they entered it and 70-to-80 per cent of them have post-traumatic stress disorder. That’s a higher rate than returning army veterans. Most of them had experiences of childhood sexual abuse and have drug and alcohol addictions.
Those are some serious layers of disadvantage. I have met and listened to enough stories of these women who have said they were approached in very vulnerable times, usually by a charming individual who was using this trusting, love-bombing method, yet who was ultimately looking to exploit them.
Even if someone does tell you that they consented to everything, you don’t know if they’ve got a gun in the room, if they’re under the influence of drugs or what kind of coercive pressures or threats they’re under.
Juliana: Data says that by 14, 94 per cent of children have seen porn. I’m not a parent, but when I see these statistics, I think about the day I’ll become one. What is something parents can do to prevent their children from becoming addicted, even though they will probably be exposed to pornography?
Daniel: It’s about making sure that we have healthy, non-fear, non-shame-based conversations so that when kids are exposed to harmful things online, we can minimise the impact. We need to normalise children speaking about it rather than getting stuck consuming something in silence that they feel they’ll be in trouble for.
A big message I tell people is, “You’re not bad, you’re not in trouble, you’re not wrong or evil because [you’ve seen pornography].” Usually, it’s because of a pop-up or because someone else has shown them. It’s not a poor reflection of your parenting or of your child. We as a society have put the interest of the billion-dollar industry ahead of the wellbeing of children. And that has to change.
Juliana: I have a lot of single friends who struggle in the dating world because pornography is such a big issue. Is there any hope for people that are looking for a loving relationship these days? Apparently approximately 76 per cent of young Christian adults have actively searched for porn.
Daniel: Thank you for acknowledging that. Yeah, it’s fraught. I have a lot of single female friends and sometimes they say, “I’m on date three Dan. When do I ask the porn question?”
I think we need to ask better quality questions to understand it. Not just, “Do you or have you consumed it?” but, “What has it taught you? What journey have you been on? What have you done to adopt a healthier vision of sexuality, of bodies, intimacy and love? Where are you now?” That shows your capacity for self-reflection, both emotionally and intellectually.
For anyone thinking about dating, please have those conversations. We know psychologically, physically and sexually that no-one is fully healthy. So, it’s about trying to find someone who is at least honest and transparent about their journey.
Jesse: Let’s talk about the recovery process. Particularly for young men, not being under the burden of porn seems like an unattainable goal.
Daniel: Everything seems unattainable until you do it. A guy came up to me at a conference and said, “I’ve done everything.” I asked him, “Have you seen a therapist or gone to a sex addiction fellowship?” He said “no” to both. So, I said, “Well, you clearly haven’t done everything.” If you’re going to give up hope, at least do everything you can.
It’s not just about wanting to be post-porn or anti-porn or quit porn. It’s coming up with a vision of your life that’s worth aspiring to and fighting for. And then taking a stocktake: what do I need to put in place so that I can [reach that]?
I know hundreds, if not thousands of men who have quit pornography and everyone’s got a different story. One of the best guys I know was struggling with it. He brought this into his marriage. It wasn’t until his wife was screaming at him that he knew he needed to do something about it. Don’t wait for it to get that bad. Don’t kid yourself about the harms. The good news is, he’s been sober for four years and they have welcomed a child into the world. But how did he get there? He realised he needed to do something serious, joined a sex addiction fellowship, went to a therapist and put accountability in place.
Jesse: Well, I think that’s a good place to cap this off, Daniel. I really appreciate the time you’ve been able to spend with us.
Daniel: Thank you for the conversation. This is done from a place of hope. I remind people the reason we talk about this is because we care for people, we love people, and we want them to thrive and flourish in themselves and in their relationships. So, thank you for letting the light in on this.
Daniel Principe is an educator, speaker and coach. You can connect with Daniel at lastoftheromans.org or collectiveshout.org
This article is an excerpt from the Signs Radio podcast.
Listen to the full episode here.
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